My Episode on the Being Freelance Podcast
I joined Steve Folland on the Being Freelance podcast to tell the story of how I became a freelancer and what I’ve learnt in the 8 years of being self-employed.
The Being Freelance podcast was one of the first podcasts I listened to when I first started my freelance journey, so I was a real pinch me moment to be able to speak to Steve!
Episode highlights
Getting out and meeting people
“I’m quite shy. I feel like people maybe think I've extroverted and maybe I come across like that. But I'm super shy, but I had to push myself to go to talks and networking stuff because I knew I had to put myself out there.
To get into those places and to talk - I had to lean into that idea of ‘I'm going to be scared but I just have to do it.’ So yeah, it was nerve wracking. But I think the more I got to do it the more comfortable it became.”
Finding out my niche and my why
“Eventually, once that seed's planted, you kind of ask yourself those questions anyway and you figure those things out. Maybe you might have a project - you think, this is the kind of client I want to work with or this is the kind of project I want to work on and you're like, maybe this could be my ‘why’?
Try and figure it out as you go.”
Nailing social media (with help)
“I used to be really bad at it - I didn't really know what kind of things to post and last year I went ahead and put in a social media strategy workshop which was really really useful. Working with a social media company to figure out, what kind of things do I want to say, what do I want to do. It was all about how I wanted to help people learn more about web design, show the impact of my work, rather than just being ‘here's a website I just did’, you know, which tells no story - doesn’t say anything.
Since having that strategy call, it helps so much because now I've got a document where I know who my audience is, I know what kind of things I wanted to be doing. ”
Putting prices on my website
“I think it's been the best thing I've done. A lot of people are like, ‘oh no, you should be ‘from…’ or you don't want your competitors to see’ and stuff but I don't really care - if it can make me feel better about not having that conversation about money than I'm happy.”
Transcript of the Being Freelance podcast with Steve Folland and Web Designer Hannah Dossary
Steve
How about we get started hearing how you got started.
Hannah
So I guess the journey kind of started back in school. I always knew I was kind of creative. The only classes I really liked were art and design technology. So I knew there was something creative in my future. Just didn't know what. I did a foundation course. Tried a few different things and then I found out about graphic design. I guess I kind of liked how there was like a clear job at the end of it. So yeah I went with graphic communication and loved the whole idea of telling a story through visuals. I'm not great with words but I could talk through graphics. That's when I'm in my happy place.
I don't know if you know about the D&AD awards that graduates do at the end of uni? I created an infographic which is basically documenting a journey of how me and a friend kind of created our degree show catalog. From that I won the Fresh New Blood award of that year. That was really cool and from that I managed to get a job pretty straight away.
It was a publishing agency in London working in like the arts and culture, so we did stuff for like Tate gallery, V&A, Kew gardens - just some amazing clients and working on magazines and big art books and stuff. I learned a lot about layout and telling a story through pages and how to kind of capture the reader and stuff so that was really really fun to get involved with. But then, I guess a year or two into working there, the iPad came out, some new crazy invention and I was like we have to kind of jump on board with this because I think all these things we're creating should be interactive.
So I kind of championed turning them into digital interactive formats and ended up winning a Lovie Award - that was really cool to kind of get that recognition for something that I was like ‘we need to do this’. You know?
I guess that was the start of me realising that the digital side of things and storytelling through movement and animation or interactivity - trying to figure out what is a user wanting to see when they click on something.. So I think that was like really exciting and we did some websites and stuff but not that much.
After four years of working there I kind of got a bit sick of not having enough holiday. And also having a boss to kind of tell me what to do.There was a lot of times where I'd be like oh I think we should do this and you know you just can't because that's not what you're supposed to be doing so I think I got annoyed with that after a while so I quits and went traveling around Asia for six months.
Yeah, that showed them. (Laughing). And then after that I think when I went traveling I'd met some people who had been traveling for two years and I was like ‘how are you affording this?’ You know I've only managed for six months and they were telling me, ‘Oh yeah, we’re freelance web designer and bloggers…’ and I was like what?! I didn't even know that existed. So when I got home from that trip, I was like right I have to look into this to see how I can travel forever. And I got involved with loads of communities, listened to loads of podcasts, this one included. And was like right I'm going to make this happen and yeah, that's basically how I started becoming a freelancer.
Steve
I love it! So when you came back to the UK after that six months traveling did you get a ‘proper job’ while you figured things out?
Hannah
No, no. I went to live at home for a bit and that was a great opportunity for me to kind of figure out right. Can I make this work? I gave myself I think six months or so. I was like, I'm going to tell everyone that I know to tell everyone they know that I'm doing this work freelance. I’m going to be designing some websites or doing any marketing design if you know anyone who needs something let me know. So that's kind of how I started. Luckily I managed live at home for free and everything so I didn't know if I would have had the guts to kind of quit work to start something like that if I hadn't had that opportunity.
Steve
I've introduced you as a freelance web designer but you were actually a graphic designer who then was diverting in towards more interactive stuff. So would you say that at that point you would pretty much design anything?
Hannah
Yeah, as you do I think at the beginning of your freelance career. Just doing everything and anything that people could pay me for you know, just trying to make money really. Just trying to make sure that you can afford to pay bills and live really. I had to obviously make my own website so I was like okay if I can make my own website, maybe I can offer that as a service for someone else. I designed websites in my agency job but I'd never actually built them so that was a big learning process, especially when you're involved with Wordpress and those kind of platforms.
So yeah I was doing everything, marketing stuff, posters. I managed to get a job from a friend who worked in a a big entertainment company in the UK and just did a poster for them and that has now turned into a five or six year kind of retainer thing doing design. So I was really really lucky with that.
But it wasn't really only until the last four years that I decided just to do web design. I think as much as I love the print side of things, I kind of wanted to travel and work and stuff. I realised that I needed to be online and do everything as virtually as possible so whereas with print you really kind of need to be checking things, you know speaking to printers and stuff - that wasn’t what I wanted to do really.
Steve
So for perspective, how long have you been freelance?
Hannah
About eight years now I think.
Steve
So you’d moved back in to your parents, you get set up, how long did it take… did you get to go traveling? Did you did you get to realise that dream?
Hannah
Yeah so so I did that for nine months, living at home and just kind of taking on all these jobs and stuff and I booked a holiday with some friends to go to Asia for two weeks and I thought maybe this is my chance to try it out. See how it could work. I went backpacking for five months by myself after that holiday with my laptop and kind of did the odd jobs here and there. Whatever I was earning, even if it wasn't much in the UK was like loads in Asia which was great for me.
But then I also did some swaps as well. So there was one lady who needed a website but she had properties in Indonesia so I was like oh well I'll swap it for a week's worth of accommodation and it was like a beautiful house. So I just tried lots of things like that. Just to see how it could work. But after a while I realised I don't think it was what I was imagining. I had to really be disciplined and kind of have those days where I had to say no to things in terms of travel. Because I need to do work. And because I couldn't just do like an hour here or there I had to get stuck in so that was not what I was expecting. But I mean it didn't put me off from the whole traveling thing at all and I still get to travel more now than I would if I was in a full time employment job. I just don't think I was cut out for the whole two years traveling.
Steve
So it sounds like actually you'd rather be doing one or the other - you’d rather be on holiday as it were or working but not trying to do a mix of both?
Hannah
I don't know. I mean I'm happy to kind of work on holiday and stuff. But when I was working I was getting FOMO that I was missing out on some really cool things that other people were doing in the morning was like okay so I think I realized quickly that I needed to kind of maybe have my mornings where I was doing work and not feel FOMO and just kind of get up with stuff in the afternoon. So I think that kind of worked. And then I think when I was in Cambodia I kind of ended up staying there for seven weeks and got a place in a house with other freelancers who were also doing that. So I think that was really helpful because they were doing work in the morning so I was like okay this is a good kind of rhythm. So I've tried - I feel like I've tried out the different things and yeah, maybe just know what works and what doesn't work for myself.
Steve
So what would your advice be to people who are trying to do that whole thing?
Hannah
I think definitely try and and network and find other people who are going to be going to those places whether it's through the communities that you're in, or people who are backpacking - but maybe find out if there's any other freelancers and find out where they kind of hang out. You know, maybe there's specific cafes and towns and stuff that you can go to, to get on with your work for a few hours and not feel bad and then escape it once you've left.
Steve
So you gave it a good go for months. But then you came back to the UK…
Hannah
Once I got back home to UK I was like, right I need to focus and make this work properly. I just found more and more work locally. I was living in Nottingham at the time and would try to approach anyone who was looking for a website and I told them what the price was which was way too little but I was still kind of figuring it out. And then I was also doing lots of stuff like UpWork and Freelancer and all those websites but I just found that the jobs on there, I mean they were good, kind of like a good foot in the door, but I think people there just seem to have really unrealistic expectations of projects and prices and stuff.
Steve
And were you just calling yourself ‘Hannah Dossary Freelance Designer’? How were you putting yourself out in the world?
Hannah
I think a ‘marketing designer’ or a ‘graphic designer’. My website was terrible. It was just basically like my logo. And then my portfolio. It was just things I've worked on which if you looked at it, was just a mix and match of everything - so someone probably went on to it and thought yeah but what do you do? I didn't really specialise in anything and so it must have been quite confusing for someone to look at that.
Eventually I realised that I need to just stick with one thing really, so I just stuck with websites. I had moved to Australia after a couple of years and there was a mentoring kind of community. A lady who was doing this online course for designers to try and help us figure out our niche and packages and all that stuff and I was like, okay I'm going to try and do that, I feel like I need to kind of get there. When I'd go to design talks and stuff I'd always see people who were doing specific things whether it is a style or you know illustration or something and they were doing it so well and they knew exactly what they were doing and it just made sense and I was like… I just not in that place and I don't know how to get there.
So when I found that course I was like okay I think I need to try and just kind of give it a go. So that course really made me look inwards and ask all those questions about what's your why? And what's your purpose and all that stuff. They’re questions I've never really asked myself. I was just trying to make some money to live. So it was quite hard. It wasn't a quick fix or anything. It wasn't like I figured it all out straight away. It took about 2 years to to finally get where I was really.
Steve
And that time you were living in Australia - were you still working with clients in the UK?
Hannah
Yeah, I had been there for just under two years. So I was still kind of working with people in the UK which is great, but also getting more clients in Australia. I was joining loads of networking events and co-working and design talks and just putting my face out there and yeah, kind of anyone I talked to, just trying to see how I could help them with a service that I had. So that really helped. The idea of going locally - it's easy to get jobs internationally but I think when you focus on your local community and trying to see what opportunities there are I think people are really happy to work with someone who they could actually talk to. So that was actually kind of going backwards. It wasn't so virtual it was more in person there.
Steve
Did it come naturally? Are you quite extroverted? Were you quite comfortable going out and talking about yourself, meeting people?
Hannah
Ah, no I’m quite shy. I feel like people maybe think I've extroverted and maybe I come across like that. But I'm super shy, but I had to push myself to go to talks and networking stuff because I knew I had to put myself out there. To get into those places and to talk and so I think I kind of had to lean into that idea of I'm going to be scared but I just have to do it? So yeah, it was nerve wracking. But I think the more I got to do it the more comfortable it became.
Steve
So you said it took you another two years to really find the answers you were looking for…
Hannah
Yeah, so I started that course probably in 2019? I think it was a three month course and the answers I was giving… I thought I wanted to be like a game designer because I thought well I like games and stuff. And then I started it and I thought this is just not me, like why am I trying to put myself into a niche that just doesn't seem to fit? And then you know it's just so many ups and downs of how do I figure it out. It's horrible. So yeah I think I kind of just left it for a bit and just was like right, let me just do what I'm doing and I think eventually you realise that once that seed's planted. You kind of ask yourself those questions anyway and you figure those things out and maybe you might have a project - you think, this is the kind of client I want to work with or this is the kind of project I want to work on and you're like, maybe this could be my why?
Try and figure it out as you go. So a year later I kind of did that course again to try and re-answer stuff and it made more sense. You know now I've had a whole year to think about it. I answered them and it made sense. I realised I loved working with creative businesses and even though I didn't have a specific style, I loved doing anything playful and joyful.
So it still wasn't until another year maybe that I had the guts to go ahead and start my business Shiny Happy. And I think before like in that second year really that was me kind of thinking or trying to brand myself which I'm not brand designer either I can't do that. Um, and just kind of like starting those little steps but trying to bring everything together slowly. And yeah I guess getting people involved - like I got a brand designer to do my logo. I started realising that I probably need to talk to people, like a copywriter to help out because it was just not getting done. And then yeah after the 2 years I finally realised okay I need to launch and even if it sounds silly or I feel like it doesn't make sense, let me just try it out. So yeah, that's when I launched - beginning of 2021.
Steve
Did it make did it make a difference when you started using that company name and all of this branding and so on?
Hannah
Yeah, because I think no one really knew who I was because I was not really putting myself out there especially on social media. No one knew my name so it made no sense to have my name as my business name. But I thought I would just try giving a business name - I could always change it if I didn't like it but I thought let me try it out and I think once I had a business name, not that I was trying to act as an agency and you know do all the ‘we’ do this and stuff but just by having a name I think people kind of got what I was trying to say. Straight away. They're like okay well, you're not going to be doing boring corporate websites. You know you're a happy brand. So I think it made sense straight away and I have had so much positive feedback about it. So I haven’t looked back really.
Steve
And did it make you feel different about it?
Hannah
Yeah, definitely. I mean at first it was kind of a bit embarrassing. I was like oh yeah, this is my business name. But I just say ‘I'm Hannah from Shiny Happy’. And for people, it just makes sense really.
Because of social media you don't have to be local. But I guess I do still kind of try and focus on local because I want to support small businesses and stuff and I guess that's the best way to start, is shopping locally and supporting locally. But definitely having a brand that people recognise helps with social media. So people know my brand before they know me. I was working in a co-working space once and someone came up to me and said ‘Oh you're Hannah from Shiny Happy!’ - so I guess the name helps because it sticks in someone's mind better than a name.
Steve
At some point in this story you moved back from Australia to the UK.
Hannah
Yeah, so I was only there for about 2 years, them I moved back and came to Brighton so that's where I am now and I’ve been here about 3 years and I love it. It's such a great community creative vibe. And it fits my business really well.
Steve
So you found your niche in terms of playful, joyful creative. But also at one point you were doing Wordpress. But now you focus on Squarespace and Shopify?
Hannah
Yeah I mean, I've tried doing websites on Wordpress and I still do, depending on what the client needs, but I just found that it was like I'm a graphic designer, so I don't want to be doing coding or dealing with plugins and all that. I want to just design a beautiful website that makes sense and tells a story and so I think when I found out about Squarespace. And it was so easy to use, my clients loved it because it didn't mean they had a website that was crashing because if we forgot to update some security plugins and all that stuff, so it kind of fit everyone really who I was working with, including me. And it just meant that I could, if I wanted to, tweak some HTML and CSS - I could but I didn't have to.
And then Shopify is very similar to Squarespace. It's a builder and I think when people find out I work on those, especially other web designers are like ‘oh that's that's not really web development’. But it is. Because someone might be able to build a website on those platforms themselves but they don't know how, they don't know why they're building the website the way they are - so that's where my expertise comes in.
All this stuff - it's easy for my client and I want to make things as easy for them as possible.
Steve
So how would you say you market yourself now and put yourself out there - you mentioned social media?
Hannah
Oh so I used to be really bad at it - I didn't really know what kind of things to post and so yeah, last year I went ahead and put in a social media strategy workshop which was really really useful. Working with a smart social media company to kind of figure out what kind of things do I want to say, what do I want to do. It was all about how I wanted to kind of help people learn more about web design, show the impact of my work rather than just being ‘here's a website I just did’, you know, which tells no story - doesn’t say anything.
Since having that strategy call, it helps so much because now I've got a document where I know who my audience is, I know what kind of things I wanted to be doing. And from there I tried to start posting as consistently as I could - I wasn't doing it as I wanted to because I guess social media or any marketing always kind of comes behind client work, which is annoying. So since August last year I've got someone involved who schedules and writes captions for me and does some stuff like that.I got her to do some design stuff as well, but I realised I love designing the social media stuff and so I'll keep doing that myself. But I think having that one person who kind of keeps me accountable and makes sure that I'm posting regularly… We know what things are going to be coming up for the next month, that definitely helps so much. And just even having someone to kind of bounce ideas off and be like, oh I wanted to post about this, and tell someone and them say, um I'm not sure about that, how about this - I feel like that having that person especially when you're self-employed and you're doing everything by yourself, it’s just really good to have that person to bounce ideas off.
Steve
Now, you’ve created packages and have these and the prices on your site. How’s that come about and how’s it gone?
Hannah
Yeah, so one of the worst things I hated was when someone would get in touch and say oh you know this is the website I want and how much is it? And then having that conversation and trying to be like, ah it's going to be this much… I hated that conversation. It was horrible. So I think as soon as I thought, okay well what are the three kind of most common websites. Someone might need a one page or an ecommerce. Whatever. I thought what would those include, what would people want in that package and then how much would I be happy with them being and so I had like a middle, a high and a low and I think that's always really worked for me.
Soon as I created those packages I put my prices on my website which has been the best thing for me really because people have probably already looked on my website. They know what the price is, they know what's included and of course I know people's websites projects are always going to differ. You know it's not going to fit everyone. But it's kind of a starting point. They can see okay, my website's almost like that, plus a few extra things - I know that it's probably going to be around that price, a bit more and so having those prices on just avoids that whole conversation by the time they come and talk to me. They already know the price and they're kind of maybe just scouting out if they want to work with me or any questions they've kind of had. So I think it's been the best thing I've done. A lot of people are like, ‘oh no, you should be from or you know you kind of don't want your competitors to see’ and stuff but I don't really care if it can make me feel better about not having that conversation about money than I'm happy.
Steve
Obviously you wanted to travel as well as freelance - you still get to do that
Hannah
Yeah, for the last few months I've been on holiday once every month.
Steve
How does that work with clients?
Hannah
Yeah, so especially with big website projects, I love a good schedule and in my contract before we start I always put in the schedule and I include any holidays. So it's not like a surprise. And then I guess it helps me to have the smaller packages so that I can be a bit more flexible with my holidays which is great.
Steve
And now when you go away, do you work at all or do you just manage to switch off?
Hannah
No I try to switch off. Like I used to be really bad, I was trying to check emails or whatever. But yeah, now I'm like no, no, I need to switch off because I'm like so into work and everything around social media when I'm home that I really need to switch off when I'm on holiday.
One of my goals for this year was to go on a work retreat. And I did do that in June or July - went to Barcelona and it was amazing. So it was with other freelancers and we worked in the morning and played and had an adventure in the afternoon and that was great because that was like balancing exactly what I wanted but with people who are also in the same boat which is really nice. So I'm gonna try and do some more of that I think.
Steve
Hannah if you could tell your younger self one thing about being freelance, what would that be?
Hannah
It would definitely be to lean on other people and don't be afraid to ask for help. People are all in the same boat and the sooner you can ask for help the better you will be over the long term.
Steve
Hannah, thank you so much and all the best being freelance!
